INT: So, I'm sorry, you. Go ahead, finish that thought. We were just talking about how young people seeing your story here will know that this is a path for them. What were you about to say?

DC: Definitely. And that's where you have to start [local stations]. I mean that's where you learn. Anyway, it was, at the same time, it was kind of scary because one day they said, "You're gonna have to go down and direct Padres baseball. The regular Director's not available." "What? Live baseball game? How many cameras down there?" "Two." "Who?" Well I really don't much, know too much about baseball, but... So I go down there. Well, I know the cameramen. Two cameras. They’ve been doing this. It was like automatic, TD [Technical Director] there. I said, "Hey, you know." He said, "Don't worry." You know, it's two buttons. But they were so fast, and I gotta re--I didn't mention this before, the cameras then had three lenses. Each lens had a different use. You had a wide angle, you could dolly, still stay in focus. You had a… That was a 90-degree. You got a 135 where you, hard to dolly on, but… And then you're, you not only had to flip a lens, you had to focus that lens. I called 'em roto lenses, but I'm not, there may be another term. [INT: Turret, I think is what they call them.] And these guys… First of all, the cameras are much smaller, not like the large color cameras, so they could really maneuver those. With one camera at home base, Bill was his name, he could get over there and he'd get the batter. He could also get the pitcher if the Director called it. And if there was a hit, he would flip if he had to and he would follow that ball. And maybe the other camera might cut away, and he would flip in on his close up lens and catch it. They were that good. [INT: Wow.] I don't know how they did it. [INT: They'd actually flip it online when they're...] Oh no, not online. You'd have to wait where there's a cutaway. But it was a formula they had. The other camera was behind home base, but up a little bit. So that was your safe camera. The other guy was flowing. No Zoomars then, yeah. So it was a whole different ballgame. But, so I'm sitting there, "Ready one. Oh, we're already on. Excuse me, two." [MAKES NOISE] They were great. They knew I couldn't keep up with it. But it was great. But this is… I didn't ever get invited to go back. [INT: I was just gonna ask.] But I loved sports. I, you know, I wanted to get into that later, but anyway… So, where are we?

INT: Well you had talked about, I mean the last story and what I was gonna say, and this was interesting, so I wanted to hear this, but you mentioned about that tough guy with the guitar coming in turning out to be Johnny Cash. And then others that went on to great celebrity. Later on in your career did you remind, like the Johnny story. Did you ever have a chance to tell Johnny Cash that you were the Director back in San Diego? Did you...

DC: No, I didn't. Mr. Cash was not what you would call the most approachable man in the world. Always wore black. You know, he looked about seven feet tall. Great talent. He, but there's a lot of Johnny Cash stories that… He was on THE TONIGHT SHOW [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON] one time and we got along fine. But had a reputation back in the '60s [1960s] of be careful.

INT: So we're still in San Diego. [DC: Yeah.] How long are you in San Diego?

DC: Let's see, probably about three, four years, three or four years. But during that time… So I was Stage Manger myself, we wanted to get out of there. Money was just minimal. And we wanted to get up in LA and try and get into the networks as Stage Managers. So we came up a couple of times, didn't have any connections. I remember walking into CBS one time and I took an application. You know, what else you gonna do? That's the way it worked. Well anyway, I went up and left my app with ABC, CBS, NBC. Now here's the amazing story. I go back and I think, oh god. Months go by and nothing's gonna happen. I'm out in the yard doing something. My wife comes to the door, "Dick, there's a call from Hollywood, ABC." Oh, I got goosebumps. Just ran in and I talked to, his name was Steve Mills, and he was looking for a summertime relief manager. And he says, "I picked your name out 'cause I'm from Kansas." And, you know, Midwestern. And he said, he had a… I mean you talk about… So next I'm up there, talking to him in Hollywood. We get along great. He has me meet a couple of people, gal in operations, Norma Olsen, wonderful woman. She's in operations. They take me into, my gosh I walk in the control room, the network where they do all the switching. I was very impressed. I said, "I don't know if I could do that." They're rolling commercials, you know, that's the center of... Anyway, so they hire me. Now I have a house and three kids back in San Diego, and a wife. So I accept it, and I rent a small little room somewhere there near the… And I say, and I would take the job and I would drive home on the weekends or whenever I had time off. Now, they had, you're not only what they call a Stage Manager, you could also AD. I mean when you were allowed to, at that point.

DC: So one quick story. I, almost the first day [as relief Stage Manager at ABC in LA], they were gonna do a quick promo outside near the street but with the station as a background. "Go back, go out there and cue this fellow." I didn't know who he was. And it was a promo for Dodger baseball, and it was Vin Scully. But I didn't know Vin Scully. I was not a baseball fan. So I thought that was kind of fun. Then I was assigned to do a dance show of some sort, lot of dancers at night. And it was directed by a fellow by the name of Steve Binder. [INT: Oh, wow.] Yeah. Nice guy. I got to know Steve quite well later. And you would move around: Car commercials, the late movie. As a Floor Manager you go out there and set up all these cars and all that stuff, cue the guy and all that. But then went, then eventually you worked your way and they could see what you could do. [INT: Now you had your directing experience before, so probably that transitioned to go from Stage Manager to AD [Associate Director] and in, be in the booth was easier for you than maybe some of the other fellows.] Yeah. Well my first assignment after… You know, I was still… I was assigned to do this kid show, CHUCKO THE CLOWN. Which was pretty wild. [INT: Say that again.] It was not easy. [INT: CHUCKO THE CLOWN?] CHUCKO THE CLOWN--it was CHUCKO THE BIRTHDAY CLOWN. And he was a character. But it was a very fast moving show. I mean, boom, boom, boom. Introduce a celebrity from the audience, and here's Jo Ann Castle playing a little rock and a little... It was, you really had to do, and it was early in the morning for an hour. But we would throw a few cartoons in and stuff like that. Fast moving. I had a good AD. And anyway, we had to get into the Guild [DGA]. That was the first thing we had to take care of. Only it wasn't the Directors Guild then. It was Radio Television Directors Guild [RTDG]. Took care of that. Couple of guys signed me in. But then, let's see, out of that I…

DC: Next thing I got to do is AD. That was a nice step. It was still, got to do, went in and SOUPY SALES [THE SOUPY SALES SHOW]. Directed by a fellow by name of Hap Wyman who was getting a better job. QUEEN FOR A DAY was in town, and there he was... But I AD'd that for quite a bit, so I got to know Soupy and the routine. It was kind of a formula show, but it was fast, boom, boom. And pie throwing. I always thought it was pies. It's, you know how they do the pies? Foam. They bring in a crust and they line up maybe 30 pies for a half hour show, and they, all ready to go. Soupy was wonderful. He later was on Merv's [Merv Griffin] show. We got to see him occasionally. [INT: I remember Soupy Sales’ show very well. So this was, clearly, this was network, 'cause I grew up in Northern California. So this was ABC network, Soupy Sales.] Well they, he eventually, he was local when I started. They also did, went to the network for a while. I was not involved in that. But I did SOUPY, I don't know how long. [INT: Did he have his White Fang and Bear Claw yet? Those hands that just came in from off camera?] Yeah. Unbelievable.

INT: Tell me something about Soupy's show [THE SOUPY SALES SHOW].]

DC: Yeah. Pookie [Pookie the Lion]. It was a formula show, but you never knew, I never, you never knew what he was gonna do, Soup. There'd be a door knock, he had this wonderful assistant who did Pookie in a window. I can't think of his name, excuse me. He also was the guy at the door, but you never saw him. The door would knock. They'd say, "Is this where Frank Sinatra…?" "No, no, no." [MAKES NOISE] He'd hit Soupy in the face with a pie. And then Soupy would react to that. Always reacting. And it went: boom, boom, boom. And we got through it, you know. But the two cameramen, only two cameramen, but they knew the formula. They knew what lens would work. They knew everything. Didn't have to really call the shots, really. I mean I did, but it… But the biggest thing as an AD there was the timing, 'cause you were joining the news. I think the network noticed me, 'cause we were on like five to five-thirty, so as AD [Associate Director] it was, 'cause the Director, like a lot of Director's say, on the last commercial, "How much time?" And it better be on... [INT: That was you, that was…] Soupy wanted to know. It was all ad lib, so, “Do I have a minute? Do I have 30 seconds?” And you had to be right, ‘cause if you said 40 seconds, he did 40 seconds: boom, roll the commercial and join the network.

INT: So how long are you there then? Your first foray into Hollywood, working ABC staff, AD [Associate Director], for a Floor Manager-AD, Director, how long are you there? What's next?

DC: ’62 [1962], only a year or two. But what I did do, and I think this is important. When I wasn't working, I would go over to watch other Directors. I would watch Ernie Kovacs put his show together. I would go into the booth and I would sit there, and I would watch how the AD worked with the Director. And the Lennon Sisters, that was, what show was... [INT: LAWRENCE WELK.] LAWRENCE WELK [THE LAWRENCE WELK SHOW]. And that Director I watched. I would see different Directors. [INT: Sounds like variety though. Were you, did you have a goal in mind? Were you thinking...] No, I'm thinking what I, yeah, what happens if, you know, how am I… If I were in his, directing a show, how would I react? Then I went over to see Ernie Kovacs. I just watched that from the... He was doing some very interesting new stuff. So that's… I was just preparing for the next step, whatever that might be, so I would be... [INT: Ready.]

DC: And sure enough, my wife and I are sitting at home on a Sunday morning in our little rented house in the Valley, the kids out romping in the front yard. Telephone rings. "Hello? Johnny! Yeah, how are you buddy? I'm great. I haven't, we haven't talked for quite awhile. You want me to do what? Would I want to come to New York and work on your show? What show is that?" "THE TONIGHT SHOW." "Yes, I believe I would. Honey, would you like to go to..." He offered me, in the middle, was no warning. He says, "You know, I got this opportunity to replace Jack Paar." I'm not sure I even knew that was going on. It was kind of a wow. And I said, "Yes. Yes." He says, "Well look, Perry Cross is out there in Burbank now, right now, because they're doing summer relief shows, because Paar wanted out right away. I'm not available til October 1st. So they hired, network is having to fill with guest hosts, a lot of them." And he said, "I want you to meet Perry. He's gonna produce my show, the show. And they're right across the, you know, not too far from where you live, and they're working." So I said, "Great." I get a call from Perry and he says, "Let's have lunch," at this restaurant right across the street from the restaurant at Burbank. And we got along great. Now, show you about my brother. So Perry said, "Well, what do you do, Dick?" And I said, "Well I been working in television quite a few years." "Oh, Johnny never mentioned that." I said, "Well..." He says, "Well, what you doing over there at ABC now?" I said, "Well, I'm directing SOUPY SALES [THE SOUPY SALES SHOW]." "SOUPY? Oh I love that show." He says, "Well come across," we had lunch, "Come across the street. We're in rehearsal for that...", whatever host it was. There were like, I don't know, 16, I don't know how many weeks they had yet to do. Long story short, “Okay.” Perry okays me, so my wife and I and kids are off to New York. [INT: Wow.] Boom, boom. That's a quick transition. [INT: But you were ready. I mean that's just a...] Oh yeah. So I get there and I... My family stayed… We drove, dog, no, no, yeah, no dog. Couldn't take the dog. Station wagon, three kids in the back, drove straight through to Colorado, and then we went to Nebraska at my parents' home. My parents still lived there. Not in the same little town. They moved three times. But anyway, the family stayed there and I went on solo. Flew to New York, so I could get there in time because I wanted to... Got, where's, got, how to get to the studio. Get to the studio. They are shooting TONIGHT… This is really a strange... The guest host that week was Merv Griffin. Can you believe that? Directed by... [INT: Hal Gurnee?] Hal Gurnee, thank you. Hal Gurnee. And so I go into the booth. And jeez, a, really a small booth. I mean it's like SOUPY'S [THE SOUPY SALES SHOW] booth only, but it was not a large booth at all. [INT: Was this in 30 Rock? Was it in…?] 30 Rock, 6B. [INT: Yeah, I…] Which used to be a radio station, radio studio. I'll go into that later. It really was… It was not up to date, let's put it that way. And sat behind him. Merv was throwing a wrap party at the Plaza Hotel. I was invited. That's where I met Merv. [INT: Wow.] Yeah. And so that was how that happened. And I started, oh gosh, I don't know, a week or two later, like a couple of weeks later.

INT: Now one of the guest hosts [of THE TONIGHT SHOW], that was Groucho Marx, that's, right?

DC: Oh absolutely. Yeah, Groucho and, you know, Groucho also was on our opening shot, opening show [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON], excuse me. He introduced Johnny. But Groucho was very interesting. You never knew when he was kidding or when he was dead serious, you know. But later he did a whole week with us. And he would be in the audience during rehearsal, he would, all by himself, he'd sit there and watch. And I said, "Well I'm gonna go out and greet him." Now, I must have spoken to him at least six times before that. But he always said, "Who are you?" I'd say, "It's just me, Groucho, you know, Dick." "Oh, oh." And he was very pleasant, but I don't know, you never knew if he was teasing you or what. [INT: Keep you off guard, off guard a little bit, yeah.] He had a sense of humor. Yeah, he was fine. He was great. But my opening day, opening night, my AD [Associate Director] was a fellow by the name of Stan Zabka. And we were doing Hugh Downs. Now who knew that Hugh Downs wanted to conduct a symphony orchestra? Hello. So onstage my rehearsal was a full orchestra: Swing, strings, everything. Now, the AD had a music background, which was good. But still we had no music. We only… So we had a rehearsal, making notes like mad, strings here… You know, it was, that's my opening gig. [INT: Test of fire.] Yeah. We got through it. In fact, Hugh afterwards, saw him and he said, "How did you do that?" And I wanted to say, “'Cause I started doing this kind of stuff, but not that many people, but still, it didn't throw me that much.” Anyway, got through Hugh, it was very nice. Got through Groucho and whatever. And I forget how many there was.

INT: This is when THE TONIGHT SHOW [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON] was an hour and 45 minutes in those early days? [DC: Hour and three-quarters, yeah] How did that work?

DC: Well, it worked... Johnny wanted to... He did not... He wanted to start early evening. He wanted to get the evening crowd. He wanted… In those days, people wore suits. By the way, when I walked into 6B, my cameramen all had sports jackets and ties. That's the way it was done. Women came to the theater, they had hats on. And if you ever see the old Kinescopes, where we pan the audience, everybody's in a suit. It's very civilized. Of course, that all changed, as we know..

DC: I had to be there [New York City], I would say, our [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON] first meeting was around 10 in the morning, 10:30, 11 o'clock. It was flexible. But at night, it was kind of a rough go, because we had no post. That's another thing I must tell you, that there was no editing because that show had to go out within 20--not 20, maybe an hour later for the East Coast playback at 11:15. Never had an edit in six years, except for one time. But you know, in those days, editing was scissor cutting, razor cutting. Little Scotch tape, you played it. The only problem was if you remember, if, in those days, if you're watching at home, all of the sudden, the picture might roll. It would lose horizontal. That would be the tape, I was told, had to kind of… And you'd, I remember getting up and you'd have the little button to stop the rolling. So, plus those tapes! 90-minute tapes were huge and very expensive. And if you cut one, you destroyed it. So no, there was one edit; one scissor cut in the entire six years or whatever it was. Which is great, because it was treated like a live show. You know you aren't gonna stop. You're not gonna do any pickups. This is what you do, you know. And that's what Johnny loved. He loved that live feeling. [INT: So you mentioned Kinescope earlier, so clearly here, we're on tape here by this time and this is what was recorded there in the New York studio. Went out then at 11:15?] 11:15. Yeah. [INT: And then electronically sent to the other time zones, you know, for the Central and West Coast…] Well I didn't realize it, but I just read something. It was a day delay to the West Coast. And I don't know how long that lasted, but eventually they got the lines through and all. [INT: So they physically, the tape--] Fly. [INT: --actually flew?] Yeah. [INT: I didn't know that.] Yeah. I'd forgotten myself. [INT: Wow.] But, yeah. But it was long trek home, and usually I would walk in the front door, 11:30 as the show was on, go to bed, get up, and my kids would already be in bed, and when I got up in the morning they'd already be in school. And this kind of led, over the years, to how long I wanted to do this. Now I'm talking three or four or five years that it was starting to be too much, a, really a grind.

INT: So refresh me again, so this is, the year was, when Johnny took over [THE TONIGHT SHOW], what year was it?

DC: 1962, October 1st, yeah. [INT: '62, okay. October 1st, '62. So you're there [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON] three years or so? How many? Three to five? How many years did you stay with him?] I think it's a total of six, maybe six and a half. [INT: Six, okay.] Yeah. Not quite sure. [INT: Exclusively Johnny and THE TONIGHT SHOW or did you do other things in New York?] I did other things. Some of them I'm sorry I did. They were involved. They were, you know, going to Brooklyn and doing a... Johnny had a production company eventually. I don't think he really wanted one or needed one, but he was talked into having a production company. And they wanted to do shows. And we did a big show out in Brooklyn, but it was a real, I don't even remember much about it. It was… actually it was a lot of people that, from THE TONIGHT SHOW. We had Joan Rivers and Tony Mottola on guitar, and dancers, Diahann Carroll. Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. And you know still then getting home and doing your thing. And this happened several times: Would you like to do this or that? I’d said, “Yes,” but anyway...